In this episode of Status Check with Spivey, we catch up with "John" (not his real name; u/Muvanji on Reddit), the applicant who we're following throughout his law school admissions cycle for 2024-2025. We talk about rejection, decisions he has (or hasn't) received, interviews he's done, typos in applications, and more. Stick around until the end for one last update on his cycle!
You can listen to our first episode with John here.
You can listen and subscribe to Status Check with Spivey on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. You can read a full transcript of this episode below.
Full Transcript:
Anna: Hello and welcome to Status Check with Spivey, where we talk about life, law school, law school admissions, a little bit of everything. I'm Anna Hicks-Jaco, Spivey Consulting's President, and today we are continuing our ongoing series where we follow one applicant throughout their cycle. So we'll be catching up with John, as we're calling him here—though that's not his real name—username "Muvanji" on Reddit. If you haven't listened to our first episode with John, I do recommend that you go back and listen to that one just as context, and we'll link to that episode in the description, but I also think there's plenty you can get from this interview even without having listened to that previous one.
As a reminder, general overview, John is a current applicant for this 2024-2025 cycle. He has a 174 LSAT. He does not have an LSAC-calculated cumulative GPA because he went to undergrad in England, where he got a law degree. After law school, he hopes to work for a big law firm in the U.S. and practice antitrust law. He is an international applicant, and he's actually gone to school across three different countries on three different continents, which I think is cool—in Canada, the U.K., and Kenya—and he's a Canadian citizen. And we talked about that in the episode. How admissions is more competitive for international applicants, how things have changed for international applicants just in these last couple of months, and then how he's thinking about studying and practicing law in the U.S. during a time when the country's international relations are in a state of upheaval politically and the future is seeming more and more uncertain for immigrants in the U.S.
We also got an update on John's application process and the decisions he's gotten. We talked about interviews and his experiences going through a couple of the more non-traditional interview formats, recorded Kira interviews and group interviews, how he thinks the interviews went for him and the sorts of things he talked about. We also talked about the agonizing waiting process and how his mindset has shifted since he submitted his applications. Spoiler alert, his thoughts on Reddit have changed somewhat. And then we talked about how he's feeling for the rest of his cycle yet to come. So, let's talk to John.
Well, hi, John. How are you doing?
John: I'm doing good, and how are you today?
Anna: I’m okay. I’m alright. Kind of a crazy world, but we are plowing through it. So, let’s talk about you. Last time we talked, you were getting ready to submit; you were completing your application components; you still had some essays to work on. Give us an update. Tell us how your submission process ended up playing out.
John: It went pretty well. I think last time we spoke, I said I was aiming for end of October, around Halloween. I ended up getting them all out the week before Thanksgiving, American Thanksgiving, so like November 20th to like 30th is when I went complete at most places.
Anna: Okay.
John: But you know what? Looking back, maybe it's just because, like, I haven't heard back and, like, I haven't heard positive news back, I'm in limbo. I felt really, really good about my essays, but now sometimes I'm thinking, "Oh, like, should I have changed this? Should I?" But I think I'm overthinking a little bit, but at the time I submitted, I felt really good about them.
Anna: Okay. Well, I would certainly listen to that feeling more than the feelings that have—since then, as you've gotten, you know, further away from writing them, and just getting more into this process of the waiting, which is not an enjoyable part of the process, I don't think, for anyone—I think that can certainly send anyone's brain spinning into, "Oh, what could I have done differently? Should I have said this instead of that?" and whatever else. Which, at this point, you've submitted, so I think the fact that you felt good about it when you hit that submit button is probably more meaningful than the sort of anxiety-provoked version now—would be my guess.
John: Yeah, fingers crossed! After I submitted, I actually looked back at a couple of my applications, and, like, I submitted kind of batches. I submitted to like every school except for Harvard, Stanford, Yale, and Penn just because I had to make some changes for those ones. But in that first batch I submitted, I sent it to so many people to read over, and there's like a line where I say—I'm trying to say "every week," and in all the places I sent it to people, it was "every week," but in what I actually ended up submitting to LSAC, it said "ever week." So I did have that one typo and, like, yeah, had that little, like, game of, "Do I send a whole new set of documents or not?" And I decided against doing so.
Anna: Yeah. That's what I would have advised, had you called me about it.
John: Okay. It's just really unfortunate. You know attention to detail is a pretty important skill for a lawyer to have. So that was really unfortunate, but I made sure that, for the future batches, it was 100% perfect.
Anna: Yeah, okay. Well, if it makes you feel better, that is an experience that a great many people go through every single year, and I have certainly heard from people like, "Oh no, I just submitted my applications, and then I went and read it again, and I found this one little typo." One little typo is not going to make the difference in your applications. I mean, maybe if it were some egregious typo that made you say something that is substantively problematic maybe. But "ever week" instead of "every week" is not going to turn your admit into a waitlist or your waitlist into a denial. I'm glad you decided not to update them and make them try to replace all of your essays with this, like, one added letter. That is a very, very common experience. And then you get admitted, and then you forget about it and don't worry about it ever again. So I'm glad you shared, because I'm sure lots of people listening will think, "Oh, my gosh, I had that exact same experience." So to you, John, and to all of our listeners, take a breath. It's okay. One typo is alright.
John: The worst part is that, in the Georgetown interview, Dean Andy, he'll say, like—one of the things is somebody had typos, first of all—but then he'll say, like, "Okay, we've done the interview, I'm going to read your app," he said, "I'm going to read it like three, four more times after," and like we've just talked about, I think what I said was that, "Oh, you know, if this person had the typo and they used the wrong name, it kind of indicates that they don't care too much about Georgetown," and then he says he's going to read the app over four more times, and I'm just thinking, I have a typo in my app! So, hopefully, he lets it slide.
Anna: Well, I think that when people talk about, like, "sloppy" applications as a result of typos, usually it's more than one typo that's contributing to that. And certainly the wrong school name is contributing to that, no question. I think that that is different from a typo, no question. I do think it's fair for you to say that even though you did have your one typo.
John: Phew. I don't want him to think I'm hypocritical.
Anna: So you submitted your applications. Those are in. You said they were complete around American Thanksgiving—which, you know, we're noting American Thanksgiving; as a reminder for our listeners, John is Canadian. So you've submitted your applications. They're in. What have you heard back from schools? I'm talking decisions, of course, but also any interview invitations or any other updates or communications that you might have heard from law schools since you submitted.
John: Northwestern lets you do a Kira interview if you want, so I did that instantly. But in terms of what I've heard back, I got waitlisted at UVA, then I got rejected from Michigan. Those ones I was kind of expecting. I know that they're not the most international-friendly, like, I thought I was going to get outright rejected from UVA, so I was like, I'll take a waitlist. And then I was also rejected from Harvard. Sad face.
Anna: Yeah. Okay. So that one I know was one that you were hoping to at least get that interview on. And as you know, I think you probably are a great interviewer. So that's certainly a bummer. How are you feeling about that?
John: I also forgot—I got an interview at Georgetown; I did the interview at Georgetown. But back to Harvard, I had a feeling in my gut. I was missing the interview invite waves. The first one went out, and I was like, that one hurt a little bit, but it wasn't too bad because most people who were getting them applied before me. But then, like, the second one, I saw it was a lot of people who were getting interview invites was right around when I had applied. I feel like I have a pretty good sixth sense about these sort of things.
Anna: Hmm.
John: I feel like, when I got out of the LSAT I knew I crushed it. I've done job interviews before where I was like, okay, I just crushed it, and stuff like that. I felt like the R was coming. so it didn't actually hurt too much when I opened up the portal, because I think I was, like, already mentally prepared for it.
Anna: That's a good thing, I think, to sort of ready yourself mentally for whatever decisions may be coming. I remember still when I was denied from Harvard. I guess I don't remember it that well; I don't remember where I was or anything. But I certainly remember my thought process. Because I had become, for whatever reason, just very attached to the idea of Harvard Law specifically—which I'm guessing is not an uncommon scenario, right? Like, that's certainly not anything unique about me. But I felt pretty good about being admitted. Back then, things were much less competitive, frankly, than they are now. Obviously it's always competitive for Harvard Law School. But I was, you know, above both of their medians, and I felt pretty good. I was getting good decisions from other schools. I remember this one—you know, it felt like it really hurt. It felt like it was a possibility that I had really foreseen in my own life that now was closed, was a path that was no longer open to me.
John: Hmm.
Anna: And probably similarly to also a lot of people who are now several years removed from an experience like that—where they've been denied from some opportunity that they were excited about, that they've been thinking about a lot—I am now, in retrospect, actually really glad that I didn't go to Harvard Law School. I ended up going to UVA, which I loved UVA, and I also went to UVA on a full scholarship, which allowed me to then join Spivey Consulting without having, like, $60,000 of debt just sunk into a law school degree that I was no longer going to get. And then also it had all sorts of other positive effects that, I think, reverberate throughout my life on a day-to-day basis now. I think about my husband, who ended up going to community college in Charlottesville. Virginia has a great community college system; they have guaranteed admissions agreements with universities, and so that really spurred him on to be able to go to school because we were in Charlottesville, and then he ended up going to Yale, and so I'm like—
John: Oh, nice!
Anna: —he never would have gotten into Yale had I gone to Harvard, and, like, all of these things. And, you know, I met at UVA, one of my very best friends to this day. I could go on and on and on.
My overall point is just that I feel like, once you get a few years out from this sort of thing, you start to see, okay, my life would have been different in ways that are very much not all positive, right? If I had gone in this other direction. So I don't know if any of that is helpful, but those are the thoughts that came to me as I was listening to you talk about—in a very level-headed manner—your denial from Harvard.
John: I feel like the type of person I am is, like, I think I'll be happy where I end up. I think in the moment, I'll be like, for a little bit, like, it stings, but wherever I end up, this is what was supposed to happen.
Anna: Yeah. I really like that. I think that's a good way to live.
You've gotten some of those denials. So I know you got an interview invitation from Georgetown. Have you done that interview? You're complete with that one? Or it's scheduled?
John: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did it on January 18th, and I think it went really well. It's hard to tell because it's a group interview, right?
Anna: Were you the virtual one? Or were you in person?
John: I was virtual.
Anna: I imagine that many of our listeners are familiar generally with Georgetown's interesting sort of group interview format, but I imagine many also are not. So can you tell us a little bit about what that looked like?
John: Yeah, for sure. So there's like eight of you and Dean Andy, and you go around, and I'd say he's pretty good at making you feel relaxed.
Anna: He's a gregarious guy.
John: Yeah! That's a good adjective. There's a couple of scenarios you run through, like you guys are role-playing as the admissions committee, and I think there's, like, one where this person was at Oxford, and then they withdrew. They were doing a master's at Oxford, and they withdrew when they were facing an investigation into academic misconduct. And there's another one where somebody, they had, like, been suspended for a semester, and they went to an Ivy League school, but, like, they had been great for all those semesters, and I think the dean even wrote something that was like singing their praises. And, like, the third scenario was somebody whose recommendation said they were a great writer, but the personal statement and other materials were really sloppy and had typos, and I think they even used the wrong school name. So you just kind of go through a group, and you say, on a scale of 1 to 10, admit or deny, or, like, something like, how severe of an impact does this have on the application? And it's like, it's pretty chill. It's pretty calm.
Anna: Okay, so in your group interview—and I've heard that it sometimes goes in different directions depending on just group dynamic—did Dean Cornblatt call on different people and facilitate the conversation in that way, or was it more of an organic conversation? And then also, how did you feel about it? Did you feel like you were able to speak up in the moments that you wanted to and felt it was appropriate?
John: I think, for the first thing, he called on the first person to start, and then everyone else could jump in. And then, I know on the last thing he did, he said, everyone, like, "it's your turn, your turn, your turn," but I think he said that was for the sake of time. But I felt like I was able to jump in. I thought it was fine. I'm somebody who, if you have the two ends of the spectrum—somebody who's, like, doesn't get to speak up, like they're too quiet, or somebody who could be too loud and, like, doesn't let others speak—I'm more on the too loud side, so I think I make an active effort to make sure—
Anna: Okay, yeah. Yeah.
John: —that other people could speak. So I ended up talking last when it was like everyone in the free-for-all. But I think it was good. It's just I think the key for it is just trying to build on what other people have said and like add your perspective, but yeah, I felt like it went really well.
Anna: Yeah. Good, good. I'm glad to hear you felt like it went well—not to cast any aspersions at your own assessment. You seem like a pretty self-aware person. So I'm glad it went well.
I think that's such an interesting interview. People used to come to us a lot more—now I'm hearing it less, because I think people are starting to sort of get it—but people used to come to us all the time, like, "Tell me the right answers to this interview. Like, which is the applicant that Dean Andy wants to hear is the best one?" or whatever, and we have to be like, "There is no right answer," which, I believe he tells you. But sometimes people have a hard time hearing what law schools are saying and taking it at face value, because sometimes it's not really the most accurate to take it at face value, just being realistic. But yeah, there really is no "right" answer. It's more about how you operate within that group dynamic and how you speak and how you build off of other people's answers, as you were saying. It's not a case where you need to choose the right applicant in order to be admitted or move to the next stage of the process. So it seems like you have a pretty good understanding of that; you had it at the time, and you feel good about that.
John: You know, one thing that, it makes me wonder is, I think they've been using the same type of scenarios for, like, maybe three cycles in a row now. So I think anybody who spends about 10 seconds googling Georgetown interview, group interview questions, can find them, and they can find, like, pretty detailed accounts of what Dean Andy says and what his rationale even is for stuff he gives. So, like, I wonder how those interviews would change if it, like, was new scenarios. Because everyone, I feel like, maybe there's one or two contrarian views, but mainly everyone was kind of falling in line.
Anna: Yeah, that's interesting. I don't know; I try not to speak too, too much specifically about individual law schools, just because then individual law schools get upset with me. But, for Georgetown's interview, it makes me curious whether they notice if people start using language and sort of saying things that indicate that they maybe, like, did a lot of studying beforehand. Because I think researching and trying to figure out what's coming in an interview that you have coming up is very reasonable, of course, and is a positive thing. But for anyone who's trying to, like, memorize Dean Andy's reasoning and, like, try to spit it back at him, I imagine that that does not go well, would be my guess. But, again, I'm not speaking for any school; that's just my general impression, as a disclaimer.
So it sounds like that was an interesting one; you felt like it went well. The other one you mentioned was the Northwestern Kira interview. So, can you tell us a little bit about a Kira interview? You know, you and I both know what they are, but for anyone who might be listening and not know what a Kira interview is, tell us about that process.
John: Yes, for sure. So a Kira interview is just like a video interview. They'll give you a prompt, and you have 30 seconds to think about it, and then you have like a minute to two minutes—I think it's like 90 seconds—to respond. Just four questions, not too hard. And I know a lot of people, some people struggle with, like, talking to the camera, making it feel natural. I don't know if I mentioned this in the last one, but I used to, like, stream and make YouTube videos. I'm pretty good, I feel, at, like, talking to, like, a camera, just even though it's just myself. So I felt, like, really confident about it. And I think that I had, like, a really strong "Why Northwestern." I pretty much talked about how they have, like, a strong international community, which is something that's important to me. But I think the main factor is that I did law as my undergrad, so I'll be doing law again, and so by the time I finish, that's six years—from 19 until, what, I'll be 26—I would have studied law. That is a risk of being what some people call, like, non-commercial. They have a really good, I think, MBA program. They have a really good business school. So I was really interested in, like, having the ability to expose myself to business courses and just making sure that I maintain, like, I don't always have, like, a super legal mind. I can think of, like, the business needs and whatnot.
Anna: That sounds interesting. Did you talk about any specific experiences that you've had with leadership?
John: Yeah, I talked about when I was leading, like, a pro bono fundraising team, and—
Anna: Cool.
John: I feel like I'd been in leadership positions before, but I think in high school, it didn't feel, like, as serious. It felt more serious now. I think, at the beginning, I had a vision for, like, the first event we were doing, and I wanted everything to be particular. And I know that people had just signed up, they're just volunteering, so not everyone is like super committed. So I was like, "Oh, you know what? I'm going to be like"—I'm doing air quotes here, like—"a good team leader, and I'll just do as much as possible myself to make it easier for everyone else." And like, I realized, the first event didn't go that well. I think we raised like 20 British pounds—
Anna: Hmm! Okay.
John: —and it was, it is kind of a flop. And then from talking with my team, also talking with the person I reported to, she had been in like my role a year prior, and then I just realized that, hey, like, I have to, you know, delegate more. Also, that gives people kind of like a feeling of ownership in what we're doing, you know? They're more likely to get their friends involved. They're proud. They want to say, "Hey, look what I've been working on." It allows me to figure out, okay, what is this person's skill set? What is this person's skill set? And I can give them tasks that they're really going to excel in. For example, I was trying to, like, do graphic design to, like, make these flyers. I'm not the best graphic designer in the world. And somebody else was—like, they were, like, really good with Photoshop and all those stuff. So that's what I talked about. And I think it was a pretty strong answer as well.
Anna: Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, that sounds like you have some experiences that have given you real insights into leadership that I think it takes a lot of people a lot longer to figure out in their careers. That's so funny that you mentioned—I'm kind of jumping back a little bit—how you felt like your streaming experience influenced your ability to sort of be natural on camera alone, just speaking at nobody really in front of you. That's such a good point. I didn't even think about that, but that makes so much sense to me that this would be a much more sort of natural mode of communicating for you than for someone who's never done that. So I guess I'm going to start telling everyone who's interested in applying to law school to just start a Twitch streaming career. That's my new advice. Spread the word.
John: Yeah.
Anna: So you didn't find it too awkward or anything. You weren't too thrown off.
John: It felt really natural, honestly.
Anna: Okay, I think you might be the only person I have ever heard say that, so congratulations! For that Kira interview, it's just, I think it throws people off a little bit, just because you are just talking at a camera and not to another human being who's actually asking you those questions. Which for a lot of people, I think, feels very unnatural. So if you're listening to this and you've done one of these interviews and you felt very unnatural and stilted, please know that is the more normal experience. Not everyone can be John. As much as we wish we could.
John: I think if I had any tip, I think, because—like I said, you can find the questions—and like, you know, okay, like I'm going to have this much time. I think people can overprepare, like they can have a script, and then, like, they try to stick to that script. And like, you can even micromanage it down to, like, okay, I know I'm exactly at 90 seconds, and that's how much room I have. And I think that ends up giving the really unnatural feel. But like, I try to, like, act as if it was just like a normal thing. Like in real life, if I would say something and I would laugh a little bit, I would do that when I'm doing the video as well.
Anna: Yeah, I think that's really good advice, is trying to be more natural. I think anyone who is approaching a law school interview by scripting out an answer and then trying to memorize it, I think that harms almost anyone. I don't like to speak in absolutes. I'm sure there are some situations where that would make sense. But for every person who I have spoken to, at least, about preparing for an interview, that is not a productive way of doing it. You just do end up coming across as very stilted. So that's good advice. I like it.
So you're still waiting to hear back from most of your schools at this point, which, you know, as I mentioned earlier, this is not a fun part of the process. And I think, especially for people who have been type A about the process at earlier points, or maybe for your whole life, you know, it varies from person to person. You might have been spending all of this time with your LSAT prep, which I know you were spending tons of time with LSAT prep, and then you spend all this time putting together your applications. And you put so much time and effort and personal investment and emotional investment into this process, and then you submit everything, and then there's just nothing you can do at that point, really, to improve your chances. You just have to wait, which I think can be really hard. How have you found the waiting process so far?
John: Agonizing. Torturous.
Anna: Fair.
John: I'm really not enjoying it. I'm someone who, I like doing stuff. Just like, go, go, going. So yeah, it's not fun just waiting. And you had asked me about how I felt about Reddit the first time. And back then I was like, "Oh, it's amazing, it's amazing." I think it actually flips when you start waiting—because then it's like, you see waves coming. I don't know how often you use Reddit. Okay, but today I'm just minding my business. I open up Reddit. And there's something about the little place in the Columbia portal that's like, "If you have new documents to upload," now it says, oh, it's like full; you can't add any more documents. So people are like, oh, wait, is there a wave coming? Is it going to be rejection? Is it going to be whatever? And people are like, okay. Do a poll: do you have this? Yes or no. And there's another poll, like saying, if you do have it, when did you apply? And it's like…
Anna: Oh gosh. We're doing some overanalyzing here a little bit.
John: Sometimes it's, "Do you have to go under review 2 at Penn to get in? I went under review 5 guys. What does this mean?" I thought I'd be way less susceptible to that kind of mind virus than I actually, I actually am. It's hard. The waiting is hard. But at the end of the day, like, what, it's February. I really hope that, let's say in a month's time, I, like, have an idea of where I'm going. I don't know how many more decisions go out in March. So I'm just hoping that there's only a month left of this madness.
Anna: Yeah. That's so interesting about Reddit. It does tend to be more cyclical, where people tend to be more sort of optimistic and cheering each other on in a way that feels—for the most part; obviously there are exceptions—but it feels really positive, I think, especially at the beginning of the cycle. And then as the stress—the very understandable stress—of this process sort of gets to people throughout the process, I think it starts to be a little bit less optimistic and encouraging and less of that sort of cheerleader-type environment. But I think everyone is an individual who can take what you want to take from Reddit, and try to not take the things that you don't want to take—which, I mentioned to you last time. I am in a glass house here. I can't be throwing stones about being in online spaces during your law school application process, because that was certainly me. So I get that, for sure. And I get the desire to overanalyze and to track everything and to try to figure out what to anticipate, and all of this. I really do get it. You know, I do think it can be sort of deleterious to your overall mindset and ability to live your life.
I published a TikTok a couple of weeks ago, I think, that I thought was a great idea. It was like, okay, I'm going to give ideas for things that people can do to distract themselves while they're waiting for their decisions. Go do other things. Don't just obsess about law school admissions. And I gave some ideas for things you can do that are, like, both productive and distracting. And it was like one of our worst-performing TikToks ever—and it was like, yeah, I guess people just don't want to be distracted. They just want to be keyed in and obsessed with this process. Which again, I understand. Fair enough.
What other stuff are you up to in sort of your day-to-day life?
John: So right now I work as a property manager for three Airbnbs. So sometimes it's really fun; sometimes it's really not fun. I think the fun parts of it is like when I'm making the actual, like, I guess I'm doing all, like, the online stuff. And I'm trying to optimize the bookings page and try to figure out, okay, like, this is what we need the occupancy rate to be, and it's, like, trying to figure out what the optimal price to set it at is and all that stuff. But then there's like the not fun stuff, like yesterday, there's a guest checking in. We send an automated message with all of the information on how to check in. And then she gets there, and she's like, "Oh, how do I check in?" And then she's like, "Okay, wait, I see the photos now, and I see, like, the message." And she's like, "Oh, what's the code?" The code is, like, in the message already. And it's just like all those little customer service things, but it's okay. I mean, I think if I said, like, what is a skill I could work on? I think I'd probably say patience. And this is really—sometimes it tests my patience. So it's good, though. It's good. It's a lot of fun.
Anna: Okay, well, that's good. You're challenging yourself, I think, in that patience realm in a way that hopefully will lead to some self-betterment, as is always the goal, I think. So you're doing that. Are you still doing some of the LSAT tutoring that you were doing that we spoke about last time?
John: Yep. Still a weekly, every Saturday 12 to 2 PM EST. It's winding down, though. This is the thing, like, the Discord lives on and on, right? But right now the people who are in charge of it and the people who are tutoring and stuff, they were people who applied this cycle, right? So the majority, like, as the cycle has gone on, less and less people have shown up. So it's like right now, it's the critical point, I think, of that Discord where, they need to get the new influx of applicants who are like kind of doing their LSAT now and who are going to be using it next year. So I'm not on the executive board. I just tutor. But I think, like, they're having meetings and trying to get people involved with that. So hopefully it stays alive.
Anna: Yeah, that's so interesting. I don't think I knew the specifics of this. So it's a Discord group of current applicants, but also there's an executive board?
John: They just made it like themselves. It's just applicants, and I think they kind of just made a committee to say, okay, like, what type of stuff do we want to do? And they've been actually pretty, like, productive. They've gotten, like, I think, UCLA. They've gotten—I couldn't tell you all the schools off the to—but Stanford had a meeting with them, Duke and stuff.
Anna: That's awesome.
John: And they've had all these little sessions and stuff. It is, I think, really helpful and it is pretty productive. I think, yeah, the tough part is just getting in the new cycle of people so it stays alive.
Anna: Yeah, that makes sense to me. That's really cool. I'm glad you're still doing that.
Something you mentioned earlier with regards to—I believe, when you were talking about UVA and Michigan—was the fact that you are an international applicant. Which, actually, let me pause for one moment here. I will just say, with regards to UVA, If you do end up being interested in UVA and wanting to pursue the waitlist, I know that you didn't write a "Why UVA" or you were not planning to write a "Why UVA" last time we spoke.
John: Yeah, I did not do a "Why UVA."
Anna: There are probably big steps that you can take that would significantly improve your chances of being admitted to UVA. So if you do end up wanting to pursue that, let me know. Happy to chat about Charlottesville and UVA. I love Charlottesville. I love UVA. Maybe a visit would be helpful, that kind of thing. But, I think there are some big steps, especially since you didn't submit that "Why UVA," if you do end up being interested in the school over some of the other options that are coming out.
But back to the topic that I started on, which is the fact that you are an international applicant. And as you alluded to, there are some schools that tend to be just, historically more "international friendly," whereas others don't tend to admit a whole lot of international students. One thing, one sort of relevant piece of news that has come out since the last time you and I spoke—and you very well may be aware of this, maybe not; I don't know—is the fact that the new ABA 509 reports came out, so those reports that show you LSAT median and 25th and 75th percentile, all that for GPA, and tons of other information about the incoming class, and about tuition; all sorts of things. Those ABA-required disclosures, which you can see all of them at abarequireddisclosures.org. And in the past, historically, they have had a category within the race and ethnicity designations that is "non-resident," or NR.
John: Non-resident aliens.
Anna: Non-resident aliens. Our outdated terminology there. So they have this category for non-resident aliens, right? Which always kind of didn't make sense, because you do have a race or ethnicity even if you are a "non-resident alien," and that just wasn't getting captured before. So this year they removed that designation on the ABA 509 reports, and they split everybody who would have been in that category up into their actual race and ethnicity categorizations, which I think makes total sense. However, they did not replace it with other information indicating the number of non-residents who actually enrolled in that law school. So you can look at the number of enrollees that they had who did not have a GPA, so that's not counted in GPA, and that's somewhat of a proxy, that can be helpful. But it also doesn't capture international students who went to college in the United States, of course, which I think is a significant component and something that I think is a lot harder to assess, especially if you are someone who falls into that bucket. Versus for your situation, I think, you know, it can be more helpful, because there aren't a whole lot of applicants who apply with a U.S. undergraduate degree who don't have a GPA. It does exist, but that's not a big category. So I think you can be looking at that number, and it can be helpful, but overall, large scale, it is disappointing that—at least as of this particular type of reporting, and maybe they'll change it again next year, I don't know—we just don't have that information on how many international applicants are enrolling in a given law school.
So, I very much hope that that information is replaced in some way, because I do think that international applicants already have a harder time in this process. And to the extent that we can make it easier or at least more transparent, I think that that's a good thing. This is something you were aware of, it sounds like.
John: Yeah, 100%. I remember the day they came—I think December 15th last time, 2023. So, like, I knew that was going to come around then in 2024. That's instantly the first thing I noticed, that there was no more NRA designation. And it's actually interesting; up until that point, I never realized that they weren't included in the other racial information, because I think—I don't know what school—I remember reading something that said the total when you add up all the races might be more than the number of students if somebody falls into multiple buckets. So I thought that they would include people in the NRA and whatever their race was. When you look at the data, it turns out they weren't doing that. I'm lucky, though. I guess not lucky, but maybe a little bit lucky, because I already knew, I think, what schools, when I was making my school list and everything from previous years' data, I knew what schools I think were more "friendly" versus not friendly.
Anna: Yeah.
John: So I didn't think it was too big of a deal.
Anna: Right now, sort of one year removed from this data going away, I think you can still have a pretty good idea just from looking at last year's 509s. I think, if there continues to be no indication of how many international students are enrolling in a given year at a school on those 509s, the further that we get out from having that data, the less clear it's going to be. So, I do hope that it's replaced in some way. But yeah, right now I think you can look at those 2023 509 reports, and that can give you pretty good information, pretty helpful information.
So another thing that is sort of on international students' radars, I imagine, or most international applicants' radars, is the fact that we are in a time period where U.S. foreign policy seems to be experiencing something of a shake-up. That is a sort of broad and mild way of putting it, but I think everyone basically knows what I'm talking about. To what extent is it impacting your sort of thoughts about coming to the United States to study law? Practicing in the United States after you graduate?
John: I don't know if this is maybe not wise of me, but I don't think it has any impact at all for me, realistically. I have really strong convictions of, like, what I want to do. And I know that the U.S. is the place I have to be if I want to do it. And like also, maybe this is just incorrect, but I think—I'm a Canadian. One thing is, if you aren't Canadian, or I think maybe Australians have a pathway to, but for the most part, if you're not from Canada, Australia, or New Zealand, you pretty much just have to play the H-1B visa lottery. That's, I think, a really scary proposition for most internationals, because it's like, okay, you're going to saddle up with $300,000 of debt, potentially, and then, if you don't get lucky, now you're going back to a country where salaries might be dramatically lower, and then how do you service this debt? So I feel lucky that I have. The TN visa pathway, but also my girlfriend is American, and we're planning on getting married. I think I'll even have my green card before clerkship applications open. So I'll be an American citizen by, like, 2030, 2031. So I'm not too worried about finding a job and all that stuff.
Anna: Okay. That makes sense to me. That's interesting, the way you talk about how you've thought about this—and clearly this is something you've been giving some thought to and have a pretty good idea of how you are going to navigate whatever new realities we might find ourselves in. Your thinking makes a lot of sense to me. And certainly based on our conversation the last time that you and I spoke, it does seem like the type of work that you want to be doing really does sort of live in the United States for the most part, at least as of right now. So certainly your goals make sense to me. And I'm glad you are still hoping to come here. I'm afraid that we're going to chase away all the wonderful people. I don't know.
John: I just hope that admissions aren't chilled. Like sometimes me and "TooTiredToTryAgain," we'll have, like, Zoom calls to check in, and we'll wonder, like, how much is the effect of the current situation chilling to admissions officers?
Anna: Yeah.
John: If you're an admissions officer, obviously you care about your employment outcomes.
Anna: Yeah.
John: And if you think for whatever reason in three years, H-1Bs aren't going to be a thing anymore, or they're going to be dramatically reduced, right? It's going to make you not want to admit an international student because you don't want to hurt your employment numbers. I think that's something that we think about in terms of, oh, like, is this screwing with us? And I also know "TooTired," he, like, isn't from Canada. So he does have to, like, do the H-1B visa lottery. And so we talk a lot about, if he's going to do big law, I had found, like, a spreadsheet online. People were keeping a list of firms that let you go to London, and then they will transfer you afterwards, so stuff like that. So I know for him it's way more of like, a concern; it's literally just a game of chance, which is like, so insane for me to think about.
Anna: Yeah, seriously, after you put so much effort into this process and lining up sort of all of the things that you can in your favor, having to leave such a big component to just chance, for sure, is a scary prospect. Just as a quick reminder for our listeners, "TooTiredToTryAgain" is another Reddit user who you met, who you did some LSAT studying with him, and then you also have been talking about your application processes, and then I actually also spoke to him for potentially coming on to this podcast. So he seemed wonderful, and I'm certainly wishing him the best.
It's interesting you bring up this sort of "chilling effect" in admissions offices. I think that admissions offices are still very much trying to get a handle—as the rest of us, I think—of what is going to happen in terms of visas, in terms of immigration in the United States, as you said, three years from now when the current applicants are getting ready to graduate and finding jobs for post-graduation.
I will say, very anecdotally, I speak to many applicants just over the course of my job—I have been hearing that international applicants at least feel like they are having a harder time this year than in previous years. Again, that is very, very anecdotal. And on our end, on our Spivey Consulting end, we have a database of applicants and their decisions and their GPA and LSAT score, mostly just for data analysis so that we can have a better understanding of the application process and how it develops over time. And one thing that we are doing this year is we are sort of building out the things that we track in terms of international students. So we have, specifically, like, a designation for international students from Canada, we have a specific designation for someone who's not a citizen or permanent resident but they went to college in the United States, or, you know, they didn't go to college in the United States. So we're going to start looking more closely at that data, especially now that we are lacking that 509 non-resident data, because it is something that seems to be developing and changing, and something that might end up being harder to track and understand over time. So it's certainly something that we are looking at, but I think, like everyone else, we're kind of in the dark right now to some degree.
So I think it's hard to say how this cycle is going to turn out, and certainly even harder to say how next cycle is going to turn out. That is one thing that I will say has me a little bit worried, is that I'm hearing a lot of people already talking about reapplying, which I think is just such a risky prospect. You don't know what next cycle is going to look like, and maybe it is an overall easier cycle or less competitive cycle. Maybe it's not. Maybe for someone in your specific situation, you know, if you're an international applicant, for example, maybe it ends up being harder. I think that there are a lot of circumstances that people don't necessarily take into account when they're thinking about reapplying. Because things can change. You don't know what's going to change. We don't know what's going to change.
John: Can I ask you a question?
Anna: Absolutely.
John: After that crazy uptick in, like, 2020, did the application numbers actually come down? Or did the rate of increase come down?
Anna: Yes, the numbers did come down after that big, huge cycle, which—something that I've been asked a few times is, is this the most competitive law school admission cycle that I have ever seen, or we can recall in recent history or whatever? And I still go back to no, it was that cycle that you're talking about, the huge spike.
Things did come down some after that, but they did not go down to, quote unquote, like, whatever the norm had been prior to that. Because things had been relatively stable up until that point—for a few years; obviously, long-term, things always will go up and down—but things have been relatively stable before that huge cycle following the pandemic. And they never really have gone back to normal. Certainly the numbers did come down some after that, and I would not be surprised at all if there was a decrease from this big year next cycle. It's just not something that I would be banking on, especially if it is the opportunity cost of a year of my life and a year of my legal career.
John: And I like to think, like, what changes as well? I thought, like, worst-case, even if I reapply, nothing has actually changed about my application. So if I did have to, like, reapply, I couldn't reapply for, like, another… The time I would start would be the time I would graduate. I'd need another three years.
Anna: Why is that?
John: I still have my job offer from England. So, worst-case scenario, I still have that, but like, I would have to do, like, the one year of it's called the SQE. It's kind of like the bar. So I do that for one year. And then I work for two years as a trainee. I wouldn't want to, like, leave in the middle of that.
Anna: Right, oh okay, I see.
John: So I would need three years before, and then I'd apply during my last year as a trainee lawyer, and I'd be starting right when I'm getting qualified as a full solicitor in England. And then it just like messes up everything. It doesn't mess up everything, but it highly disrupts the timeline I had planned for my life.
Anna: Yeah. Is that something you're considering right now? Potentially reapplying? And for you, given your job offer and what the alternative to law school would be, several years down the road reapplying?
John: If I don't get in anywhere, I don't get in anywhere. I think I did a good job of only applying to schools that I would be happy to attend. Like, I think, originally, I said I was going to blanket the T14, minus, I think, UCLA and Berkeley. Then I also dropped Cornell and Duke from that list. And maybe this is, I made a fatal mistake. I think around, like, October, November, after we talked, I was looking at my school list seriously, and I was looking at the schools, like, I would be happy to go to, and I started working off—maybe it's a dangerous assumption, maybe it was a fair assumption—that I looked at what schools were international friendly. I looked at their medians. It was like, Cornell, Northwestern, Columbia, and Georgetown. And considering what I want to do, being in D.C. is not a bad bet. So I was like, okay, I was like, I kind of like my chances of getting into Georgetown and Columbia. And if I got into Georgetown or Columbia, would I go to Cornell? No. Would I go to Duke? No. So I didn't apply to those two schools, even though Cornell is super international-friendly.
If I get in anywhere, I think I'll go, but if I don't get in anywhere, I have to just take the three years.
Anna: Okay. Yeah. That makes sense to me as a plan, to have only applied to the schools that you think you would be happy at, and, you know, that are goals that you see being better options than taking your job offer you have. And it seems, honestly, that would be a great opportunity also. Clearly it's not specifically what you are hoping to do. But in terms of the sorts of roles that one might take if they were deciding to reapply at some later point, going and working as an attorney is a pretty good bet. That's a pretty good one.
So, it is February 5th. We are not at the point at which you should be thinking like, "Oh, okay, my cycle is over"—obviously, and you don't have that attitude by any means. I brought it up really because I've seen people talking about it at what I feel like is, at this point, just very early.
So certainly I would expect for you to get some decisions this month. I wouldn't be surprised, honestly, if you do get some decisions next month also. Trying to be realistic. It's certainly a possibility. And then every year there are also some schools and some applicants, and I don't know if this is a file falling behind the desk in some digital way, but there also are always some people who just don't hear back from schools until way later than you would expect and even past the timeframes that the schools estimated. That's a thing that happens. I hope that doesn't happen to you.
John: Fingers crossed!
Anna: But just as a general sort of, you know—that is a thing that does sometimes occur. I would say, if you have not heard back from a school and it's been a long time—it's been several months since you've submitted—and if you are past the timeframe that they said, this is when we expect to get decisions out, that's when it is appropriate to follow up with the law school. But in the vast majority of cases, you don't want to be following up to be like, "Hey, do you still have my application? Are you reviewing it? Did you forget about me?" That sort of thing is generally not what you want to be doing. But at that point, reasonable, I think, if you're past the timeframe that they gave you.
So lots of decisions yet to come.
John: Mhm. Hopefully all green.
Anna: Yes, okay, well, we'll be crossing our fingers for all acceptances. That'd be pretty good.
How are you feeling about going into this latest stage of the process? Do you have a game plan?
John: I have a pretty ordered list of, like, if I get in here, I'm going to go. If I don't get in here, then I'll go here, so…
I also forgot this. I did visit Georgetown. When I was in America for American Thanksgiving, I went down because my girlfriend lives in Northern Virginia, right outside DC. But yeah, so I went to see Georgetown. I'm very excited to go and, like, you know, learn again, and like I said, do have the Socratic method and kind of have the more traditional law school experience. But I think I also I am very much seeing this as like a utility. This is, like, what I have to do to get to my goals, get to where I want to be.
When I picked my school I went to in undergrad in England, I just kind of went by rank. I went by ranking, and then I was just, like, "Oh, I'll go to this one." And I didn't even think about, oh, how I was going to get there from the airport. I got really lucky. It just worked out that there was, like, a train line from, like, the airport to, like, a super—London Paddington, and I could just go from London Paddington straight to my school, literally right there. So in terms of location and visiting, like, campuses, I'll go to admitted student days to meet people and stuff, you know, to see the school, because I think most of the time they comp it for you. And either way, it's just a fun little trip. I don't know how much those will actually play into my decision. I think I'm pretty much looking at, okay, like, what school has the best shot of getting me to where I want to go? That's the calculus when I'm thinking of Georgetown. I know, if I'm looking at D.C. and looking at where are the attorneys who are in the antitrust practices actually from, I see a lot more Georgetown grads. But I just look at the data and see if I can talk to a couple people. If I can get in touch to anybody at firms, that'd be ideal. I know that I'm not afraid to just cold call.
Anna: That is a good quality. That's a quality that will serve you well in your career. I did want to ask you about, since you mentioned visiting—last time we spoke about you were maybe going to go to NYU and sit in on your friend's antitrust class. Did that end up happening?
John: Hotels are so expensive. So I just couldn't make it shake. I was hoping to stay with him, but he, like, has a shoebox. I mean, it's New York, right, so…
Anna: New York, yeah.
John: Right so. At the time I just couldn't justify spending, it'd be like almost a grand for, like, a one, two day trip.
Anna: No, that's a pretty big investment. Let's end with, what advice do you have for other applicants who might be at the same stage as you are, or at a similar stage, where they might not really have any options yet, they're still just waiting, it's this agonizing part of the process. What advice do you want to leave listeners with?
John: This is going back on what I had said in the previous episode, but just get rid of Reddit. Get rid of status checkers. It's all made up. You'll get an email when you get in or when you get a decision. I went snowboarding on Monday; I didn't look at, like, a status checker all day. I didn't even know what Reddit was. It was phenomenal. I had the best day I've had in a very long time. So I think, if you can get outside, do something, and if you're in a place where it's winter, if you like snow sports, get involved with that. Unironically, like, touch grass. I'm doing air quotes, but like, just do something, like, active. And also just, like, get away from the computer screen. That helps a lot. Like I feel like this week has flown by really quickly, and I think last week flew by really quickly because I was, like, looking forward to my snowboarding, and maybe I'll go again next week, too.
Anna: Nice. I like it. That seems like a good idea. And I think that is very, very good advice—and a good place to end.
Ah, ah, ah, hold on a second. This is Anna from a few days later. A quick update—addendum?—to this podcast. John emailed me two days after we recorded this episode, and he got into Georgetown! He's so excited. I'm so excited for him. Congratulations to John; you're going to law school.
I'm looking forward to checking in with him a little bit later once he's gotten some more decisions, getting at least one final update on his cycle. Thanks so much to him for sharing his time and experiences with us. And as always, thanks also to our listeners. And I hope we'll see you next time. Bye for now.