Anna: Hello and welcome to Status Check with Spivey, where we talk about life, law school, law school admissions, a little bit of everything. I'm Anna Hicks-Jaco, Spivey Consulting's President, and today's episode is actually not for law school applicants themselves; this one is for the parents. Many parents want to help out with their kids' application processes, which is wonderful, but what are the best ways to do that? And what are the ways that actually aren't that helpful, or might even hinder their admissions chances?
We'll be talking about what's okay, what's not okay, what's expected, what's not expected, all of that and more. I'm joined today by two of Spivey's wonderful consultants, Shannon Davis and Danielle Early, both of whom have extensive experience not only working with applicants to help them craft their applications as a part of our admissions consulting business, but also working in law school admissions offices themselves, reading applications and making decisions on files. So without any further delay, I'll let them introduce themselves.
Shannon: Hi everyone, I'm Shannon Davis. I am a consultant at Spivey. I have been working in law school admissions for 24 years, and I started in 2000, so that seems like ancient times, but I've been with Spivey Consulting for seven years. And prior to my law school admissions life, I actually worked in undergraduate admissions for a little bit, and then I was a college career advisor at a high school for a few years. So I feel like I've been involved in the college and law school admissions process at lots of different stages and places. I am also a parent of a child who is starting the college search process. In fact, yesterday we just got back from a college visit. So I'm really excited about this topic. I feel like I can really empathize with the parents who are supporting their children through this process as well, and I can't wait to talk with you all about how they are involved and how they can really be an engaged supportive part of this whole thing with their students.
Danielle: And I am Danielle Early. I have been with Spivey Consulting now for nine years. Prior to that, I was an admissions officer at Harvard Law School, and prior to that, I was in undergrad admissions. So this is my 24th year in admissions as well. And in addition to my time working in the Harvard Law School office, while I was there, I was also a dorm parent at Harvard. So I lived in a freshman dorm for five years along with rambunctious 18-year-olds and my dog and got to guide them through that first step of the process of time away from home. And I'd love to be able to give some great advice today on the ways in which family members can be incredibly supportive to the students as they're applying to law school. So thanks!
Anna: Wonderful, thank you both for being here today!
The first thing that I was hoping to do is just to give an overview for any parents who are coming to this who might not necessarily know anything about law school admissions, probably didn't go through the law school admissions process themselves. I'd love to just give an idea of what they should be expecting in terms of general timeline, generally how this process works.
Shannon: So I'll go ahead and jump in here, Anna. There are differences between the college application process and the law school application process, but there are also some similarities. One thing that's similar is that you're going to start the college search process and law school search process pretty early, maybe even a year or two ahead of time, depending on where you are in your decision to go to law school. So a lot of applicants are going to start maybe a year before they enter law school, they're going to be taking the LSAT maybe even a year and a half before that. They're going to be taking the LSAT, they're going to be researching law schools. The application process starts a year ahead, just like with colleges, you're going to be applying in the early fall, throughout the fall.
But one of the big differences I would say here is that law school admissions is on a rolling basis and college admissions is not. So, what that means is that, for a lot of colleges, your applications are due, you know, at a certain time, and applicants have up until that time to apply, and really they're okay going up to that deadline to get their applications in. And then in the spring, there's sort of a decision release date for colleges, which is usually around April 1st; schools will notify their students of who got in and who didn't get in. And then May 1st is sort of "decision day." Where are you going to go? You have to place your deposits by that date. That's a very typical cycle. Early decision is a really big part of college admissions. There are a lot more people finding out if they got in earlier; that's kind of a big part of college admissions.
For law school admissions, we don't want to wait until the deadline to apply. We want to apply much earlier if we can. So looking at applying before Thanksgiving is early; before the end of the year is typical. Even if a law school admissions deadline is March 15th, you don't want to wait that long, because law schools are making decisions pretty much as applications are coming in, starting in sort of mid-fall, and then law school applicants have to make their decisions usually no earlier than April 1st.
Early decision is not a huge part of the law school application process. It really should be a very selective choice and honestly, it's just really not for most people applying for law school. So I would say those are some of the big differences and similarities. Danielle, do you have anything to add there?
Danielle: Yeah, so there are two other differences that I would throw out there from the college to the law school process. One, just taking it a little bit further into the timeline, students who are waitlisted through the college process, I think they have a release date of July 15th or right around the 4th of July that's agreed upon amongst colleges. Even the waitlist is done by mid-summer. Whereas in law school admissions, there are people who I have worked with who have been admitted on the first day of classes at a school. The waitlist can extend through the summer. So, that's another slight difference. There's still a waitlist process, it's very similar, but it can go a little bit longer.
The other big difference that I really think is helpful to understand as you're talking to your student about what their goals are and what their timeline looks like, is that when you're working with your student applying to college, the vast majority of people are going directly from their high school experience and then that fall after they graduate, they're heading into college, and it's an anomaly for somebody to be taking a gap year or to take a little bit of time before they're heading off to college.
However, in the law school process, it is far more common for people to go out and work for a year or two before they're applying to law school. There are many students who are applying to law school and going straight through from their senior year of college to law school that fall, but it is a much smaller percentage. So it might be something that your child is thinking about, “I'd like to go out and work for a year or two,” or maybe “I'd like to get a master's degree before I'm heading to law school.” It's not as rigid a timeline as what the high school into college period is. So that's just a little bit different on when they might be planning to do this.
Shannon: That's a really good point, Danielle. I would say that there are some law schools where the average entering age is like 27. So there are people in their 30s, 40s, 50s. We had an applicant in their 60s one year. So they definitely can take some time between college and law school.
Anna: And I'll just note that that work experience that applicants get in between college and law school is actually really helpful for the law school admissions process. Law school admissions officers like to see that work experience. It's certainly not disqualifying to be applying straight from college, plenty of law school applicants and then students apply straight from college, but it is helpful to have that work experience. It is a plus to your application.
Shannon: I think that's a good point, Anna. I just want to pipe in here because sometimes students get a lot of pressure from their peers and sometimes their parents about, when you're graduating college, you need to know what you're going to do right after, and you need to go to graduate school right now or you're going to be at a disadvantage in the process. And that's just not true for law schools. The most important advice here is to wait until you're actually ready, and you really know you want to go to law school. And that might just take a few years to figure out.
Anna: Yeah, that's a great point.
Let's talk about parental involvement generally. So, how involved can parents be, how involved should parents be in their child's admissions process?
Danielle: Let me jump in on this one and say that the time period that your child heads off to higher education is, in my mind, a period where your space in guiding them through their life—it changes a little bit. I think as you're bringing somebody from diapers up to high school graduation, you're leading them a lot of the time. You're really in a place where you're showing them the direction to go. So you might actually be in front of them. You might be the person who's making phone calls, making appointments, making things happen for your kid. And as they grow, they start to do a little bit of that on their own.
My experience when I was living in the dorms was actually quite eye-opening as these freshmen would move in, and I would see such a stark difference from the date of move-in to the date of move-out, where parents would be the ones who would come up with the key to get into the dorm, and they would kind of lead their child into the dorm. And when they would move out, half the time, the students left on their own. Nobody came and picked them up. They were able to do and navigate that little world all on their own. The first year of college is such an extraordinary time for that difference to come. And as they're working their way through college, parents are extraordinarily important in the emotional support and the guidance of, “Okay well, let's help you do this. Let's help you figure out this way to go.”
As they are graduating from college and heading off into jobs and master’s degree programs and other things, that space where a parent should occupy should be a little bit more behind the student. Supporting the student, being a cheerleader for that student, being there for them, but allowing them to be the one who is making the steps towards the direction that they're going.
For me, as somebody who was working in admissions and has worked with a lot of students in process, I have definitely found that if a student is not the one who's driving the process, it's less likely that they're going to be as successful as the students who are driving it with great support behind them.
So that would be the way that I would describe it, theoretically and in general. We're going to get into specifics later, but I'd love to hear Shannon's thoughts on it too.
Shannon: Yeah, I think parents don't really need to be that involved in a child's law school admissions process, but they can be to a degree. Their children have been adults for a while, and they should be an adult in this process. They are the ones in charge. Like you said, Danielle, parents can be the cheerleaders, they can be the support person. They know their child really well, and they can talk to them about choices, about what's a good fit. Really help them search schools in terms of where they might be happiest, where they might find good opportunities. But really, this is the child's choice. This is the child's future, and like I said, they've been adults for a while, so they really know how to do this on their own.
I can say that, as a parent—like I said, I understand—especially if you are going to be supporting your child in terms of paying for tuition, you want to make sure you're also happy with your student's choice of school. So there's some investment, maybe, for some parents who are also financially supporting their children this way. But I think that they really do need to loosen those ties even more in this process than they have before in any other admissions experiences that they might have had with their students.
So I would think that most of the parents are used to having their children out of the home, taking care of their college, responsibilities, maybe even working for a long time. And so they really can step back for the law school admissions process while absolutely still being part of the conversation about where their child is going, maybe advising on professionalism and things like that. But otherwise this is really the applicant driving this whole process, and the parent is typically going to be in the background.
Anna: Yeah, that's a great overview. Shannon, I really appreciate the point that you made about parents sometimes not being involved at all in the law school admissions process. We're going to talk about some of the ways that parents absolutely can be helpful in this process, but I will note, it is not uncommon at all for a student, for an applicant to be really driving this process entirely without really any parental support. That's not a bad thing.
We're here, of course, to talk to the parents who do want to help, who do want to be supportive. And there are lots of good ways for them to do that. But first I'd like to talk about some common mistakes that parents make when they're trying to support their student, their applicant. Do one of you want to start to talk about some mistakes?
Danielle: I think the biggest mistake that can be found, in a lot of different ways, is the parent assuming that the law school expects them to be part of the process. Both you and Shannon actually just alluded to a point of how involved parents are, and that often they're not involved in the law school process. Shannon also mentioned the financial aspect of it, that you might be expecting to pay for law school. In undergrad admissions, the admissions office is expecting parents to be involved in the process. Also, the financial aid process is expecting parents to burden the majority of the cost of attendance. In law schools, the student is the one who's going to be taking on that burden, and the expectation is there, and the law schools are expecting that it's the student that they're engaging with the most. They're really not expecting a lot of parent, parental involvement.
So the mistake that I want to point out is that, a lot of times, parents are thinking that they're expected to be part of this process. And so it can be a little bit jarring when they're reaching out to admissions to set up an appointment for their child and admissions is acting a little bit awkward with the fact that it's a parent on the phone instead of the student calling themselves. The parents who assume that there is space for them at an admitted students’ weekend when the admissions office wasn't expecting them to be there. Having an expectation that the schools are expecting you to be there can start a lot of the different places in which there are mistakes that end up being made.
Shannon: Yeah, Danielle, that's a great point you're making that law schools, they really don't expect the parents to be involved at all. But I can see that parents might think, “I really should be part of this process. I always have been,” or “I was with college and it makes sense that I would be.” But yeah, that's a good point, I think, for parents to hear that we don't really expect parent involvement. At the same time, we don't ban it either; we're not saying that parents can't be involved.
Danielle: Exactly.
Shannon: I would say that a mistake is also doing the applicant's homework for them. I think parents should think of this as a job, that their child has a job to apply to law school, and a parent shouldn't do that job for that applicant. It's the applicant's job to do it. Now, a parent can talk to their child about, is this a good job to take? Is this a bad job to take for you? But they're not really involved in applying for the job and doing the interviews, in the communication with the employer. So if they think of it more that their child is applying to a job, they're probably going to be a lot less involved, and I think they'll probably make the right decisions as to what to do and what not to do for their child in that process.
Anna: That's a great analogy.
Danielle: I think another mistake, alluding to what Shannon was just talking about, is taking too big of a position in writing of the essays. The essays should be authentic and genuine and the voice of the applicant. I often talk to my clients about, when they're going to get somebody else to look at their essays, to ask that person a specific way that they want them to look at their essays. So instead of saying, “Hey, can you just give me an evaluation of my essay?” go to them and say, “Hey, you're really good at editing. Can you go through this? I like my essay, I like the content, I like the message, but can you make sure all my commas are in the right places, the grammar makes sense?" Or you might ask somebody who knows you really well—a parent can be a great example of this—“Does this sound like me? Does this sound like my voice? Does it sound like I'm writing honestly, or does it feel a little bit forced? Does this make sense? Have I told the story in a way that somebody understands it?”
But if you're in a place where you're starting to rewrite your student's essay when you're editing for them, you're probably a step too far. If you are in a place where you're telling your student what the topic should be, you're probably a step too far. So being that supportive role of being somebody who's checking it for them can be incredibly helpful. But they need to be their own author of their essays, and that's something that there's no admissions officer out there who would say, “Oh, yeah, go right ahead and write your kid's essay. That's fine.” They want to hear directly from that student.
Shannon: Absolutely, Danielle. And on the note of personal statements, I would say that personal statements can be personal. Applicants don't always want their parents to read them, so there is sometimes a hesitancy for the applicant to share that personal statement. Maybe they won't even offer, right? If that's the case, they're not going to offer to have their parent read it. But sometimes a parent wants to and says, “Let me read it, I can help you,” but the applicant may not really feel comfortable because they might be sharing stuff about their background and their, how their parents influence them negatively or positively. I've actually had a couple of clients myself who wrote a personal statement and then changed it so that their parent could read a separate essay.
Danielle: It doesn't happen often, but we've seen it.
Shannon: Absolutely, yeah, it's not very common but definitely it happens. And so if a parent can recognize like, “Hey, this might be something that my child really doesn't necessarily want me to read,” not because they're bashing their parents or anything, but that people have experiences that they maybe haven't shared with their parents yet. And the personal statement may not be the first place they want their parent to learn that experience. And so I think if a parent wants to read the essay or wants to support the applicant by offering to read the essay, they should also caveat it with, “Hey, listen, I don't need to read your essay. This is your essay. This is your application. But if you want my feedback, or if you want my help editing, I'm here. I will only look at it for technical issues, grammar, typos, clarity, and things like that. If you don't want me to read it, 100% I'm fine with that, and I totally understand.”
Anna: That's a great point, Shannon. One other thing that I will flag is, parents can sometimes make assumptions about the law school admissions process and how it works that sometimes are just not accurate about how the law school admissions process works. So I would be really cautious about making any of those assumptions without really knowing.
One really common example is that, oftentimes I'll be working with someone and they'll put together this wonderful personal statement that's very focused, and then they'll look for feedback from others, which is perfectly appropriate. Sometimes that's parents. They'll say, “Why didn't you include this thing that you did that was really great or really impressive?” or “Why didn't you include this other thing that really qualifies you for law school?” And that's just not the purpose of the personal statement. The personal statement is not intended for an applicant to lay out every last little thing—or even all of the major things—that qualify them for law school. That shows up on the resume, that shows up in optional essays oftentimes, that comes through in other parts of the application. And looking at the personal statement as, "it needs to be something that demonstrates all of the wonderful things that the applicant has done," is actually really inaccurate and can be harmful for their application as opposed to helpful.
Shannon: Absolutely, Anna. One of the things that I've recognized is that parents have the same access to information on the law school application process as applicants do, if they're online and they're searching and they're looking for information on maybe discussion boards or other websites because, they're doing some research for their student, and they get the same misinformation that applicants do. So they often come to have the same questions that applicants do or get the same bad information that applicants do and rely on that as fact or good advice. If they're advising their students because of information they've gotten online, they act as sort of their advisors or consultants, some of that information is just bad. It's not helpful if the parent is doing research and they're finding all this misinformation and passing it along to their student. That's tough, because neither the parent nor the applicant really knows what's bad information necessarily out there. I don't know how to fix that other than looking at our materials, because we're trying to put out the most accurate information, but they should know that some of that information just isn't good information.
Danielle: I would say it's a good guideline to say, "if I've read this online, I read this online with my child," as opposed to "this is the way it needs to be done," recognizing that most of the info online is a great starting place.
Shannon: Yes, but consider the source also, right?
Danielle: Yes.
Anna: I think that's huge. There are some great resources out there. We're constantly trying to put out content that is helpful and accurate and is coming from our well of experience actually working in law school admissions offices, reading applications, making decisions on files. And that's really the best perspective. Those are the best types of sources. There are current admissions officers out there making content on the admissions process; that's another great place to look, because they actually know firsthand what they're looking at in various applications and what's helpful and what's harmful, versus people who just have applied themselves, oftentimes they'll say, “Hey, I got into this great school and here's what I did,” but actually, you know, one or two or a few of those things that they did harmed them, and it was the other things in their application that really brought them forward, that really allowed them to be admitted. So information directly from current or former applicants, I would just always take it with a grain of salt. Try to find backups for that information, try to triangulate, get things from various sources and don't take anything as gospel just because it's being said with a lot of confidence, because people say wrong information with a lot of confidence all the time.
Danielle: I have one more example of mistakes that parents make that I'd love to throw out there: impersonating your child with the intent to either do administrative stuff or make things easier for them. It's actually really easy as an admissions office to recognize when it's not the student who's contacting them. When I was working at Harvard, I remember our front desk receptionist who answered all of our emails bringing me a question from a waitlisted student that was a little bit aggressive, and she was irritated by it, but she said, “but it's not him who's writing,” and I said, “Well, how do you know?” and she goes, “Because there's double spaces after every period.” And I said, “Well, what are you talking about, that's traditional.” She's like, “Yeah, you're old. Nowadays we only use one space after periods.” And it was so funny because I was like, “Yeah, I'm Gen X. Alright, fine.” But I've recognized it over the years of working with clients is that, the clients who are my age that I work with, they're putting two spaces after periods still, but the younger ones weren't. This front desk receptionist knew immediately that this email did not come from the student.
Your voice when you're 22 years old has a different tenor than when you're 50 years old. So if you're calling the admissions office and you're pretending to be the student, what you're doing is creating a sense of distrust from that admissions office to that applicant. And it's perfectly fine to call up and say, “Hey, my son and I are going to be visiting the area for a family event, and he had mentioned that he'd love to be able to come to campus. I was wondering, do you have any tours that week?”—that's great; it's totally fine to say "I'm calling on behalf of this person" if for some reason you're the one calling on behalf of the person. But when you try to fake it, it becomes obvious much more quickly than you think it might. And you don't want to do anything that does decrease the trust that the admissions office has in your student.
Shannon: I was going to say that, you know, you should never fake being somebody else in any situation, right? Unless you're an actor and you're performing. But I think you bring up a good point that parents often think that they're doing their child a favor, “Oh, my child's really busy,” or, “They asked me to do this for them.” And to a point, it's okay to be the one to occasionally step in and say, you know, “I'm going to set up this visit this one time.” Generally speaking, the applicant should be doing that. Sometime a parent also might have to just say, “Listen, no, I can't be the person doing all these things for you. I want to support you, but I also don't want to hurt your chances. I don't want it to look bad for you if I am the one taking all these steps for you.”So I think that the parent sometimes is going to have to say no if they have a child who's really leaning on them to that extent.
Danielle: Yes.
Anna: I'll add that law school admissions officers, among many other traits, are looking for maturity, are looking for self-motivation in their applicants. And then moreover, applicants are soon to be law students, and once you're actually in law school, parental involvement becomes even less common and becomes even less welcome, especially from law school faculty. A law school professor never wants to hear from a parent. I hesitate to speak in absolutes; maybe there are some situations where they would want to hear from a parent, but I would say in the vast majority of situations, it is not appropriate for parents to be talking to law school faculty. So it's also getting ready for this new stage of life, this new stage of your educational trajectory, where parental involvement is much less common in actual law school. So it's good to be getting ready for that also.
Danielle: It's only four years from when this applicant is going to become a lawyer. If you feel like your child is not ready to do these types of tasks for themselves right now, it may be a great conversation to have with your student about, maybe they should take a little bit more time before they're heading to law school to get that confidence, to get whatever it is that they need.
Shannon: That is a really good point, Danielle. I would say the one exception here in terms of interacting with the law school would be financial aid. If a parent is going to be supporting their child financially, they need to be a part of that conversation. But the child does too. It can't just be the parent having all these conversations with financial aid and trying to figure out the finances; the child really should be involved in that too. But if the parent is going to be substantially supporting that child financially, absolutely appropriate to be talking to the financial aid office.
Anna: That's a great point, Shannon.
Let's talk about some of the best ways that parents can support their applicants, their child. What are some ways they can actually be really helpful, really supportive?
Shannon: I would say that they can be a sounding board for their child. They can talk with them about things like pros and cons of certain schools that they might be looking at. They might talk about different areas of the law that the child might want to explore. They can be a sounding board for even essays, even though we've talked a little bit about that sometimes a parent might not want to be part of the essay review process. But as Danielle said, it can be really helpful to see if that essay sounds like that child. They can look at resumes. They can travel with them to schools on visits. Although I would say that, a lot of times, the child doesn't necessarily want that parent on the tour or in the admissions office asking questions. I think that there's a fine line here, right? So law schools are used to having parents come on tours; most of the time the parents aren't there, but if they do come on the tour with the student or sit in the admissions office with the student, it's really the student who should be asking the questions. It should be the student who is looking at the admissions counselor, at the tour guide. The parents should be in the background in those kind of situations. But parents can come. I would say that again, being that student's cheerleader, being their emotional support person, obviously financially if that's doable for the family—but otherwise really let that student fly on their own.
Danielle: I was going to start off with "be a cheerleader," so I'm so glad that Shannon just ended that with "be a cheerleader." Because this is a really hard process, and the reality is, is that your student is putting themselves out there right now with the potential to be told "no" a lot. If they are reaching for the stars and really going after their dreams, the likelihood that they get denied from some of the schools they're applying to is high. If they're willing to reach for their goals, putting themselves out there and being willing to take a risk is something that is exceptionally difficult for many of us. Having a support network that says, “Go for it. The worst thing that happens is they say no, but the only way you're going to get in and you're going to get the best news of a 'yes' is if you apply, take the chance. I'm here for you. I care about you no matter what answer you get.” The more you can just show your unconditional support is the number one thing that you can be doing for your student.
I would say that that type of cheerleading can go in so many different directions. It can be encouragement. It can be, “Hey, I know that you've been studying a lot for your LSAT. Why don't I take you out for a nice dinner?” Because I'm telling you, the 22-year-olds, 23-year-olds are not feeding themselves well. So you know, rather than ramen for dinner like, “Hey, let me take you out,” or “Let me give you a home-cooked meal.” Checking in on them in that process, really being that support network is the number one thing that you can do.
I think being honest with your child is also a really important thing. We've talked a little bit about financing the education, and some parents are involved and some aren't. From a school's angle, they're primarily looking at the student as the main contributor, but it's important for you to have an honest conversation with your student if those expectations of one another are a little bit different. If you're expecting to contribute, they weren't expecting you to contribute, or you're expecting not to contribute and they were expecting you to, it's so much better to have that conversation early on in their process, as opposed to avoiding it until they're trying to make a decision about where they're going to go.
Telling them how you really feel about them heading to the other side of the country. If you've got the financial ability within your family to ensure that they're going to have flights home for the holidays, or if you don't have that, it's good for a student to really have a better expectation of, “If I do go on a three-hour plane ride or a six-hour drive, what type of support am I going to have to be able to come home if I were to want to or need to?” Those types of conversations and having them earlier in the process is incredibly helpful to your student. Because now they know a little bit more about what that interaction will look like when they are in law school.
So being the cheerleader. Having open and honest conversations with them. But I think one of the other really great things is, get their mind off of law school more often than you're getting their mind on law school, especially during the waiting process. I think the number one common statement I hear from students—they've sent in their applications and now they're waiting. So as Shannon explained at the beginning of our conversation, there's a rolling process for the admissions in law school. That does not mean that if you send your application in now, they will get a decision back to you in two weeks and somebody who sends it in in two weeks will get a decision two weeks later. It means they get applications at any point during the fall, and when they are ready to make a decision on your particular application, they will send you a decision. Some students get held onto for a really long time in the process so they can be compared amongst a broader part of the applicant pool. In fact, the vast majority of decisions for students don't come out until January, February, March. And so the most common statement that I hear from my clients when they are in the waiting process is, “My parents are driving me crazy. Every time I'm on the phone with them, they're asking me, have you heard? Have you heard? Have you heard?” I think knowing your kid is going to tell you when they've gotten admitted, or they might take a day or two to tell you before they've gotten denied from a school or waitlisted or whatever it is, you being the person who can reach out to them and say, “Hey, what's going on in your world? Let's talk about this great movie I just saw or the work experience that you're having,” if you can get their mind off of their waiting process, that's much more helpful than being the person who keeps reminding them that they're waiting.
Shannon: Danielle, I want to add to that, parents can put a lot of pressure on their students, but they also can be somebody who can tell a student, “Hey, listen, you don't actually have to go to law school,” right? I mean, I had a client once who, she was very driven, very focused on going to law school. Even before she entered college, she had it on her mind that she was going to go to law school straight out of college. She had certain schools she was aiming for. She was trying to do all the right things, get all the right jobs, do all the right activities. And by the time she was a senior, she was really burnt out, and she was putting a lot of pressure on herself. And her mom said, “Hey, listen, why don't you take a year off of this whole process and just relax, you know, enjoy your senior year. Take time to find a job.” And that was the best thing for that client. It really helped her just release that pressure valve. Law schools are going to be there any time that student decides she wants to actually go and is ready, and maybe she never will. But I think that was like the best gift that her mother gave her was to say, “Relax, there's no timeline that you have to do this, that you have to live this part of your life.” So releasing that pressure valve would be really good for certain people.
The other thing I would say is, when decisions come, parents can be great support. They can celebrate, they can comfort them if the decisions aren't the way that the student wanted, and they can remind their student that where you go to law school is not who you are, it's not your identity. “We love you. We know who you are. You're going to be great no matter where you go to law school or no matter what profession you end up in.” They can be that celebratory person and they can be that comforting person.
Anna: Having that type of support can be so helpful in this process that is really stressful for the vast majority of applicants. What we've been talking about with the timeline, I think, is a pretty big contributor to that. If you're applying to college, you know, you put together your application, you get it in just before the deadline, and then you know when you're going to hear back. For law school, you might apply in September and then not hear back until March. Or you might apply in September and then hear back in October. And not knowing which one of those is going to be your fate can be extremely anxiety-provoking. So having someone there to say those things that you're saying, Shannon, those things that you're saying, Danielle, can be so helpful in just taking the stress of this process and taking it down a notch.
The other thing I wanted to bring up was, we've talked about financial support in terms of the tuition of law school and actually paying for law school. I'd like to briefly talk about financial support for the application process. So here's where I'm going to be a terrible salesperson, but if you only have a limited amount of funds that you are going to be able to contribute to the admissions process, frankly, we would recommend that going toward LSAT prep and LSAT tutoring before admissions consulting. Because the LSAT is a massive component of law school admissions. The numbers—LSAT, undergraduate GPA—they're more indicative of what your results are going to be in law school admissions than in undergraduate admissions and in other graduate school programs as well. So if you're thinking about the best ways that you can financially support your child as they go through the admissions process, I think step one, LSAT prep, because that can make such a huge difference; that is going to make the most significant difference in the law schools that they're looking at, and the LSAT is a very learnable test. So we never advise anyone go in and take the LSAT blind just to see how they'll do, because almost everyone can improve their LSAT score substantially through studying, because it is a learnable test.
Now, that said, you've got your LSAT prep covered. Law school admissions consulting can also be incredibly helpful in this process, because you're working with someone who is actually a former law school admissions officer and can look at all of your child's materials from that perspective, from that strategic point of view of, “Okay, I'm a law school admissions officer. I'm reading this application. What are the red flags I see? What are the strengths I see that we can emphasize?” So admissions consulting absolutely can be helpful. I mean, of course we feel that way, otherwise we wouldn't be in this industry. But I would put your money toward LSAT prep first, frankly.
Danielle: I would also add into that that if finances are difficult for you to help your child or for your child themselves, encourage your child to reach out to schools for help. There are fee waivers available for the application. So there's a cost to apply to all the schools. There are fee waivers available through LSAC as well for the test, for the CAS fee, all of those types of things.
Additionally, a lot of students will go and visit the schools after they've been admitted to help them decide where they're going to go. There are a lot of schools that also provide some financial support to visiting if that student shows a need. So one of the great places you can be supportive of your student, even if you don't have the cash to give them, is to encourage them to make those types of phone calls. Because the admissions office wants there to be no socioeconomic barriers to students who apply to them to be able to decide if they're the right institution for them. And so beyond the prep work for the actual applications, there are ways in which the admissions offices can specifically help with their institution's costs.
Anna: Excellent point.
I'd like to do, if it's okay, a sort of "lightning round" of various ways that parents might think are a good idea to support their applicant as they are going through the admissions process. And I'd just like you both to give sort of a quick opinion, okay or not okay, for these various ways courses of action.
Okay, #1, attending an admissions information session or an appointment at a law school with your applicant.
Danielle: Okay to go to the info session so long as there's space available. Appointment, no, they should be outside of that room.
Shannon: I am going to agree and disagree with Danielle here. I already spoke about this a little bit already, but I do think it's okay to attend an info session and a tour. Again, as Danielle said, if there's room; you should always make sure there's room. I do think that some law schools are very open to having parents in private conversations with admissions. I think the student should ask the school if it's okay if their parent join them in that conversation. And I think there are other schools that are really not welcoming to that.
If a parent does join the student, they need to allow the student to ask the questions, to be the one conversing. They should just be a fly on the wall unless there is a financial aid question or the student is okay with one or two questions from the parent—but those questions should not be intrusive or overbearing in any way.
I think ultimately the parent should say to their student, “Here are some of the questions that I have that, if you feel comfortable asking, or they aren't already on your list, take a look. I don't really want to be the one asking the questions, but I think these are some good questions you could be asking.” Maybe that's a way that they can get some answers. But for the most part, again, if the parent thinks of this as the child's job that they're applying for, then the parent probably won't be joining them in that room.
Anna: Yeah, that's a great point. And if they are in the room, the applicant themselves should be the one driving the conversation from their point of view.
Shannon: Absolutely.
Anna: Okay, #2, attending an admitted student event with your child.
Shannon: I normally would say not okay, but I have to say that I have spoken with some students whose parents did come with them on admitted students days, and I think this is really school-specific. I think that some schools are really surprised when a parent shows up on admitted students day and that student would be embarrassed to be the only student there with a parent, and then there are some schools where there are a few parents, they might even have a parent information session as part of their program. So I think that ultimately the student needs to call the school and ask that school, “Is this common? Are they welcome?” If they do come, I think it's mostly a thing where the parent walks around while the student is in all the sessions. Certainly to be able to see the campus is something that a parent might want to do, but it doesn't necessarily mean it has to be during the admitted student event.
Danielle: I'm going to repeat what Shannon said in a slightly different way. I think it's important not just to look at whether or not the school will allow you there, but to have a really good conversation with your child about why they want you to be there with them. They may enjoy traveling with you and want you to come and see the place that they're going to be going to because they want to share that with you, and that's such an exciting experience that they don't want to give up showing this to Mom or showing this to Dad. And I don't want to take that away from anybody if their reasonings for wanting you to be there are about that excitement level and that type of thing. That doesn't necessarily mean going to the admitted student events, going to sessions and classes and all of the different things that are teaching them about the institution. It may be better to meet up with your child after they've done those events so that they can tell you about it and they can kind of work through everything that they've experienced.
When I was at Harvard, we used to label the events that parents were allowed to go to, but we didn't have space for other people to go. What we would say oftentimes was, partners could come but parents could not, because we understood that a partner was going to be moving to campus with them. And so if it was things like social hours or events that really brought you into the community, we wanted the partners to feel part of that. Parents were not invited to those types of things.
So some schools will tell you explicitly; other schools won't. I was actually watching Dean Z from Michigan, her podcast from a few weeks ago, I think it was, where she was talking about parents and their roles in the admissions process. And in one of the comments underneath that YouTube video, there was somebody who said, “I'm going to assume I'm allowed to come unless it's explicitly told that I shouldn't.” And I'll just go back to what I was saying early, which is the admissions office is not actually expecting you to be part of it. So I think you should assume low opportunities to go to events. But if you and your child have a relationship in which sharing those exciting moments are important to you, going with them on the trip is great. Then you need to decide whether or not the actual moments at the admitted students weekend are appropriate for you to be at as well.
Neither one of us answered okay or not okay to that, by the way.
Shannon: It depends.
Anna: This is such a lawyer thing. So many times in various podcast interviews, I'm like, okay, choose A or B, and I think it's just a law school, a lawyer thing to say, "It depends; I can't give you a clear answer."
Shannon: Yes. Areas of gray.
Anna: I mean, we're trying to be as accurate and as helpful as possible, and that's not black and white. So it's okay if our "lightning round" is a little bit slower, that's alright. #3, reaching out to a law school to set up a visit for your child.
Shannon: Not okay.
Danielle: I agree. Your student should be able to make a five-minute phone call.
Shannon: Absolutely. I mean, if they're going to be a lawyer, they should be able to do that.
Anna: I like it, that was a pretty quick one. #4, reaching out to a consulting firm to set up an appointment for your child.
Shannon: I think that is sometimes okay. I think if they're going to do that, then absolutely, we've mentioned this before, don't impersonate being the child trying to set up the appointment, reveal yourself as a parent. But we do have a lot of parents who are paying for consulting, and they are wanting to make sure that the consultant is trustworthy, is expert in this field, and that their child is getting the right information and the best advising, and so I think it's sometimes okay for a parent to go ahead and set that up. I would prefer that the applicant do that, but, you know, I think we can give a little bit on that part of the parent involvement.
Danielle: I'd agree with Shannon. I would say, if you're a parent thinking about calling on behalf of your student, ask the motivation of why. Are you trying to force them into moving forward on this? Then probably they're not ready for the consulting work. If you're just doing it because, I had a client like this a few years ago, her daughter was on a study abroad program and was just on a completely different time zone than we were and it was going to be really expensive, it made absolute sense for the mom to be the one who reached out. But I think you have to ask the motivation of why you're choosing to be the one who's calling.
Shannon: I would say that we are not anti-parent in any way. We interact all the time with parents in very positive ways. So this is just general advice. And I would say, like Danielle said, if there's a good reason for that parent to be reaching out, absolutely, they should go ahead and do that.
Anna: Generally, as a rule of thumb, at least for our firm, at least for Spivey Consulting, parents are more than welcome to be somewhat involved in our initial consultation before signing up, parents are more than welcome to listen in there. But overall, and especially once we actually get started working on the application, it needs to be the applicant who is driving things. Authenticity is an incredibly important part of putting together an A+ law school application, and the more that the applicant themselves is driving the process, the more authentic their application is going to be, for sure.
Alright, #5, contacting a law school with questions about the application process for your child.
Danielle: I'm going to go with not okay.
Shannon: In agreement with Danielle on that one.
Anna: Yeah, I think that maybe some setting up of appointments or something like that can be okay depending on the situation. But once you're getting into substantive admissions questions, that's when it should be the applicant themselves.
Danielle: You can absolutely help out by talking to your student about what questions they want to ask, role-playing that if they're uncomfortable with making that phone call.
Shannon: Yeah. And I know that some parents will listen in to those calls. I think that's okay too, as long as they're a silent observer.
Anna: #6, going back to working with a consultant, in case that is something that you're considering: texting or emailing a consultant questions on behalf of your child.
Shannon: I would say that's also not okay. I think that one way to think about this is that the consultant is a counselor, and the student doesn't necessarily want their parent in that counseling session. But if the student invites the parent to the "counseling" session or the consulting session, that's okay. But it always should be the student who is leading that, who is inviting the parent in, who has spoken with the consultant that that's okay. The parent shouldn't be doing anything that the client isn't okay with or doesn't know about. For example, I would never talk to a parent separately from my client. That is not okay. A counselor wouldn't do that without approval, unless the person is a minor of course. But anytime that it's only the parent and the consultant speaking, I think is not appropriate.
Danielle: Yeah, my answer is going to be, as long as the student is CC'd on it, then it’s okay, but it shouldn't happen often. Not okay.
Anna: #7, writing any element of your child's application materials.
Shannon: Not okay.
Anna: Okay, we got an easy one in there.
Shannon: That was easy.
Anna: #8, providing edits and suggestions to your child's application materials.
Shannon: That's okay, yeah. Edits and suggestions. I think that, if the applicant is working with a consultant specifically, the parent really needs to trust that the consultant is advising them very well on content and probably the little things as well, but certainly, parents do look at their materials, resumes, essays. And providing sort of those grammatical and clarity type corrections is perfectly okay.
Anna: #9—this is something that I have seen in an application—writing a letter of recommendation for your child.
Shannon: 100% not okay.
Anna: Terrible idea, don’t do it.
Shannon: Terrible idea. I've seen it, too. And I've seen a letter submitted without the child's knowledge from a parent.
Anna: Oh no!
Shannon: That was way back when the process was a little bit different and letters were mailed in to law schools. But yeah, that was not okay at all.
Anna: Well, I'm glad at least the current process wouldn't allow anyone to submit a letter of recommendation without the applicant themselves knowing.
Shannon: I know that this scenario is a little different, but if an applicant works for a parent, their parent is their employer, I can see where a parent or an applicant would be confused as to whether that would be okay for a parent to write a letter, and I would still say it's not okay. The applicant really should find professors or even somebody else who works at that company to write the letter, because a parent is never going to be an objective recommender. No matter what, that letter is just going to be disregarded, and then the judgment of the applicant would be called into question.
Anna: Yeah, a parent is always going to be biased, even if they are the employer.
Shannon: Yeah.
Anna: That concludes our lightning, non-lightning round. We have gone over so much. I greatly appreciate all the advice that both of you have given to parents who are trying to be supportive of their child who's applying to law school.
Let's leave our listeners with one final piece of advice.
Shannon: One thing I want to say is that we know parents have their kids' best interests at heart, and they're used to helping them, especially, I would say, since COVID. And a lot of kids really appreciate that help, and they rely on it. And it's become a little bit more of a world where parents and kids are, that bond is a little bit tighter because of the craziness and chaos of our current world. But applying to law school and becoming a lawyer, it really is a life shift into adulthood, if that applicant hasn't already made that shift. So they need to be doing it now. In the workforce parents are involved 0%, and so applicants, this is the time to take on their own future, their own responsibilities without that significant parental involvement.
Danielle: My last piece of advice is, don't discount how much support they're really getting from you as the supportive person on the sidelines. If you don't have a background in law or white-collar work or, you know, the experience of going to grad school or even going to college, you may think that you don't have anything that you can offer in your child's application process. But the most important thing that any student is getting from their parents in this application process is just the unconditional love and support. And the person who's there for them when they can celebrate what they got and can be disappointed in what they got. Being that person who is there for them, who is willing to be a sounding board, willing to celebrate, be that cheerleader, be the person who can help them deal with their emotions over the whole process. That's the biggest thing that you can be doing for your students. So if you're thinking, I need to do more, don't discount how incredibly important just being there for them already is.
Anna: I think that is a wonderful place to end. Thank you both again so much. Parents, I hope you found this helpful. If you're looking for more substantive advice, more information directly from former law school admissions officers, feel free to follow us on any of our platforms, because we are constantly trying to put out advice that is helpful for all applicants.
Thank you both again!
Shannon: Thank you, Anna.Thanks for having us.
Anna: Bye, everyone.
Shannon: Bye.
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